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You know, it is hugs & kisses to all my grunt buddies this Valentine’s Day. Come to think of it, that Full Bird Colonel never did hug me as a Spec 4,11Bravo, when I was in the bush much less in the rear. Guess I never would have hugged anyone as bad as we smelled then.
Gary & Ben keep on biting as your points are valid. My the time I left I was a zombie so Gary & Ben I can’t even think how it was while you were there.
Geez! Now that we got all the bile out, how about some warm fuzzys and comradery!
Ben:
Yes, they were ready to throw in the towel by the time the Paris accord was signed, but it was to be only temporary. When Uncle Ho said they’d unify Vietnam if it took a hundred years, he wasn’t joking and 1975 proved that. Of course, the cease fire conditions made it easier and perhaps shortened the time frame, but I firmly believe the eventual outcome would have been the same. After all, the division of Vietnam into two parts was arbitrary and un-historical, driven by our fear the Ho would win a free and open election. We created South Vietnam, with Diem as our front man, precisely because we knew how popular Ho was.
However, that does not mean the war couldn’t have been won. If someone would’ve had the guts to do what Nixon did at the very end much earlier, it might have turned out differently. Round the clock heavy bombing, the temporary cutting of the Ho Chi Minh trail (Operation Lam Son 719 in 1971) and the mining of Haiphong harbor forced the North to the negotiating table in 1972, and I see no reason to believe it wouldn’t have done the same thing in 1964 or 65 or 66. Had Johnson or Nixon used their political capital earlier, neither of us might have been required to go there at all. It’s usually forgotten, but the majority of American’s still supported the war even into 1970, but nobody capitalized on that support to do the things necessary to actually win it. It’s much like how G.W. Bush dropped the ball on Sept, 12, 2001 by insisting we all go the mall, rather than fight the war to achieve a clear-cut victory.
But, history is full of such missed opportunities. It’s just our misfortune to have been a part of it. Like the soldiers at Gallipoli in WWI, we did what we were asked to do to the best of our ability, but events beyond our control laid the groundwork for failure, in spite of our best efforts.
Gary, I feel your pain. I have been reading your posts for several years.
I was waiting for an assignment to a Navy OCS class when I was drafted – rotten luck. Never figured I would end up 11B, but made the best of it. I think I have posted this before, but I joined the company shortly after leaving Baldy. Plans were to clean up our AO (Hawk Hill) and move on by November. We would see whole platoons of NVA in the open – soon put a stop to that. Also whittled away at the VC. Took longer than expected but the last of the VC surrendered late spring or early summer, 1970. I am a lucky man that I got to witness the surrender. 2/1 did its job, we won. From reading history, NVN was almost ready to throw in the towel. But they got a second wind when we halted the bombing. So here we are today.
Ben:
It was just the times and nothing personal (of course I didn’t see that then). While you were there, folks still thought we had a chance of winning, so the sacrifices had meaning. By the time I arrived in Nov, 1970, most of us were under no such illusions. That included our leaders who had to know perfectly well that they were ordering us to our deaths for nothing, yet they did it anyhow. This was their chance to put into practice everything they’d learned during their Army careers and they weren’t going to miss that chance. The war sort of took on a life of it’s own and the only meaning was found in fighting it for the sake of fighting it.
In spite of their best efforts, though, the level of combat declined remarkably from the time I got there until I left. Consequently, without anything else for our senior leaders to do, they turned to what they knew best: Army chickenshit. It increased as contact declined and finally reached the ridiculous point of them trying to enforce rear area discipline out in the bush. It never got to the point that they required us to break starch every day (though that’s probably just because we couldn’t), but we did have to shave every day, whether we had water or not, and even had to polish our grunt boots back in the rear. Article 15’s flew with abandon, almost more so than bullets. It was a strange world which most of us we Private’s resisted mightily which, of course, only made it worse.
No wonder the Army had discipline problems then! LOL
Larry,
Thanks for the search engines & links to the right. Had not really looked at them until your post.
Gary,
I would say my experience would best be described in your last paragraph. I think it is terrible you guys were treated so bad. To be a “grunt” & live a grunt’s life is hard enough but to be treated with that lack of respect is unforgiveable. I am truly sorry it happen to you guys.
Ben:
It must have gone downhill a long way because by the time I got there, we weren’t getting any hot meals in the bush at all…ever…and re-supply only came every 4 days or so. Once, we went 10 days with no resupply at all because the weather was too bad for Army pilots to fly in, but the air was full of Marine choppers all day long. Two or three times, the BN CO flew down to consult with our CPT and brough nothing with him. We stripped the countryside bare of rice, pigs and chickens, but still couldn’t feed the whole company enough to prevent us from becoming physically weak. Eventually, a platoon was sent off on a cross-country march with empty rucksacks to bring food back to the rest of us from the BN firebase, which we could see on a hill top just right over there.
Uniforms? IF we got any at all in the bush, they were used, frayed and may or may not fit. It was not at all uncommon to go an entire operation in the same uniforms you left Hawk Hill in and that once amounted to more than a month once during the monsoon season. We were literally in rags before we came in.
Near the end of my tour, though, it got better and we started getting hot A’s every 3 or 4 days. Once, we secured an LZ for extraction and a single bird flew in first, kicked off boxes of clean uniforms and departed. Just at the very, very end of our operation, clean uniforms showed up and we had to change right there in the LZ. I’ve always suspected it had more to do with looking good when we disembarked in Danang than it did with anything else.
I must say during my time from 11/68-11/69 resupply was good. Hot meal once a day weather, firefights, & mountains allowed. Food not always great but not complaining. Water brought in but drank rice patty water at times with tablets added. Old uniforms but didn’t care. Met up with the Marines a couple of times & compared to them I didn’t complain. Had air mattress, one dry t-shirt, & one dry pair of socks. From the stories below sounds like went down hill after I left.
Rock,
I believe the Walking Thunder was more impressive. It did wake me up and shook a little for maybe 4-5 seconds but that was it. It is the second since I’ve lived here. Not like the one I experienced in SanFrancisco in the early 80’s.
LT
I read you had a 3.8 earthquake near you. Must have felt like a B-52 strike….
We continually try to improve and keep fresh this web site. Have you noticed and tried the new links to the right? If you haven’t visited the wall web site, it is a very good memorial site. If anyone has a good link to anything for this site, let me know.
On the supply side, we used to get one set of clean uniforms about once a month whether we needed it or not. I remember they would send out the uniforms in a big ole sack and when it came in they would spread it out on the ground and have everyone come and find their size and put on the clean uniforms and send in what we had on to be cleaned to be returned again next month if necessary. I almost always cut the sleeves out of my t-shirts. Word got out to us to quit cutting the sleeves out of the uniforms or we wouldn’t get any more clothes. As I remember it, we usually had a couple of t-shirts, one pair of pants, no underwear, and three or four pairs of socks in our name.
Back to gear……..did you ever see what the jarheads had to deal with..? and the ARVN’s…? I think we were were somewhere in the middle. The marines were still using TA-50’s and 14’s when we had ruck sacks and 16’s. I had a jarhead buddy on Baldy, before they moved out, and I couldn’t believe it. Our stuff was aged, but the ARVN’s was usually brand NEW…..from my recollection..
Snow: “We gotta get out of this place”. Has a nice ring to it – somebody should put that to music – might make a good theme song.
We don’t plan on being here (Iowa) next winter. The thought helps us to smile a little.
You Easterners need to get ready as here it comes again! We in the Chicago area are getting a mere pittance of what you can expect as I hear it! Good luck and don’t have a coronary shoveling!!
There are many important gripes about resupply of ordinace and chow.
Two things from early on stick in my mind, however:
When we got off the ships, we had standard fatigues and leather boots. Even after a couple of months, visits to the rear in rotting, uncomfortabe uniforms and moldy boots, we would see the clerks and whatever sporting the latest items of both.
When we moved north after seven or eight months of nasty reconstitued milk and ice cream, we found that a Navy (hence Marine) ration was 1 1/2 an Army one and they had fresh milk, ice cream and even the occacsional steak.
Does anyone need some snow for extra moisture or decoration? Have extra to give away.
ben–if you miss the ice storm cleanup, get a flight to pittsburg. they have a lot of hills that need de-icing.
Ben:
Soldiers have always been under-supplied. Some of it in Vietnam was because of incompetence and some of it because of outright stealing in the rear areas. Sometimes, we’d get worn out junk which was handed down from some rear area which claimed the new stuff when it came in and gave us their old. It worked the same in the Reserves and National Guard too. I guess it’s a systemic problem which won’t end until someone gives enough of a damn to correct it. Human nature, I suppose.
Anyhow, at one point we couldn’t get bug juice at all, which at the time was a real downer because we were west of Tam Ky and just being eaten alive by mosquitos and leeches. I got mad and wrote Nixon directly to complain. LOL Fast forward a few months: Slim Stravens was back at Hawk Hill for some reason and overheard some officers talking in the Brigade mess hall. They’d had to dispatch a truck from the DMZ (where the battalion was at the time) all the way down to Danang for a truck load of bug juice because, “Some son of a bitch wrote the President and told him we didn’t have any.” 🙂
Since I am already wimpishly emotional, notice the picture to the right (upper left picture) of Ty Harper (on the right) and me at our local Memorial Day Service. Ty and I were close in VN, even went on R&R together. Totally overwhelming to do this together almost 40 years later. The man behind Ty’s left shoulder lives 2 blocks from me and worked with a mine dog in VN.
Bad Ammo: As I remember, the news of the My Lai Massacre broke in early 1970 and it seemed every US Congressman was coming to VN on a “fact finding mission”. We were getting 3 C-rats a day if conditions permitted. We would burn or bury the stuff we didn’t like and carry just the high calorie, high protein foods. Someone found out about what we were doing and cut us to just 2 C-rats per day to cut waste. If our ammo got old and corroded we would also get rid of it and order new ammo. Someone high up deemed this wasteful so we didn’t get new ammo anymore. Corroded ammo=jamming.
Yes, I am bitter about some things. I look around at the people that fall under the auspicies of the government and it is obvious they have never missed a meal. As soldiers for our great nation there should have been no excuse to go without food or arms, Shameful we had to drink water from bomb craters and rice paddies. On the other hand I am proud to have served and am aware there were few in my peer group in my community that could have served in our capacity. We are an elite group, proud to have served with you all! Hope we all get together at the reunions and at the Final Standdown. We all deserve a special place.
i would like to attend . done me loads of good last yr. larry fry
I just talked to Fred Passe, whom is hosting this year’s reunion in Wabasha, MN. He said that so far there are 28 registered for the reunion. Doc Whitebird is going to attend.
There are several that intends to show up early and doing a little fishing. Fred Passe said he would line up the boats and people to take us fishing. It sounds like it is a gathering of his friends instead of a for hire guide. Fred said the Walleyes, yellow perch, bass, and some other fish should be gathered up about the time we are up there. Sounds like a good time. Anyone else interested just let me know and I will let you know what plans I know of.
Ben:
Was it old ammo, or ammo from the Lake City, UT arsenal? It was stamped LC on the butt end of the rounds and was notoriously unreliable.
As the pig gunner, I’d refuse to accept it at the ASP and make them give me something else.
M-60: During my time, as I remember ,our third platoon M-60 (did we have 1 or 2 ?)performed flawlessly, except for that period of time in early 1970 when we were not allowed to DX the old ammo. We spent a lot of time cleaning it with our toothbrushes, but it would still jam. We found that if we slammed the butt to the ground it would clear and continue firing until the next jam. This is also the time period we were rationed to 2 C-rats a day instead of the 3 we were used to.
War story: We arrived at a small knoll late in the afternoon. I thought, as most others, that would be our NDP. Then we were told to move to another knoll nearby. Unknown to us a mortar squad had been following us and dug in at our first stop. When we moved, we moved closer to them. We were about set for the night when I thought I heard a “whump”, but not sure because of all the noise going on around me. When I heard the whistle I knew it was a mortar. First one was short and got 1 or 2 guys setting out Claymores. They were not 3rd Platoon. One guy got hit in the head – anybody remember who it was? By now I figured out where they were and I could see them drop the mortar down the tube. I had the M-60 by my foxhole, so I would fire as they adjusted the tube and drop the next round down the tube and during flight, then I would drop down in my foxhole just before it hit. We kept up this game for several rounds. When it was over I found I had collapsed my foxhole around me trying to clear the “pig”. I often wonder how many Americans were killed due to the old ammo. I am thankful I did not have to witness such a tragedy, but then think how many dinks got away because of the faulty ammo.
They must not heard about global warming with these 2010 winter storms!!!!!!!
Hey Ben,
Have you ever given any thought to moving? Maybe we should all head south or southwest! Had lunch with Russ Schweizer the otherday and must have gotten a touch of the norovirus. I had to laugh that one website had explosive vomiting as a symptom. They sure were right about that.
That Damn “Global Warming”……….
In response to Larry Harper’s query on Jan 26 about our storm here in Iowa, we woke up to an ice storm and no power Wed, Jan 20. Trees and poles were down and some buildings collapsed. The Red Cross came in and set up a shelter to help those that could not help themselves and FEMA came in with generators to assist key businesses to stay open. There were crews here from Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, Arizona and Wisconsin that I know of – may have been others – to assist in restoring the power grid. Sunday night and into late Monday we had a blizzard, stranding many motorists, we had to care for. We put them up in churches and homes and fed them. As far as I know most crews worked right through the blizzard. I think the power was fully restored late Saturday or Sunday, Jan 31. Trouble is that most wires were just spliced instead of replaced. Ran out of poles so pieces long enough had to be reused. All this occurred after near record snowfall and now more is on the way. Oklahoma crews went home to deal with their own devastating ice storm.
I am generally proud that we as a population withstood the adverse conditions as well as we did, but also alarmed at the number that did not cope well. All I can say is that we as “Brothers” have seen worse.
Excellent Jim! Amen brother.